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Vasco Grilo's avatar

Nice post, Avram! Can I crosspost it on the EA Forum in 2 months or so? Here is an example of a crosspost (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/dTjtgyq6KyYdgyrxc/moravec-s-paradox-and-its-implications).

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Alex Popescu's avatar

I’m somewhat skeptical that the universal happiness hypothesis entails that the plate tectonics possibility (PTP) is worse than the techno-disaster possibility (TDP). If PTP is true and TDP is false, then we should indeed expect there to be far less earth-like civilizations at our current level of tech progress (call these middling civilizations). But we should also expect there to be much more high-tech civilizations which have advanced far beyond our current level of tech progress, when compared to the alternative (PTP false and TDP true).

It’s true that the number of middling civilizations on the latter scenario will greatly outnumber the amount of high tech civilizations on the former scenario, but this doesn’t mean the latter is more preferable. It’s plausible that a high tech civilization, in the absence of TDP, might progress to colonize the entire galaxy, or at least a significant chunk of it.

Because they are so advanced, they might contain far more people than would exist in the TDP scenario. Of course, given that PTP is supposed to be an explanation for the Fermi paradox, such civilizations will have to be rare indeed (say only 1 per 100 galaxies), but even then I think the numbers still work greatly in favor of a PTP scenario. For example, a single kardashev-2 type civilization existing in just one solar system might contain as much, if not more, human beings (e.g. sextillions) than would exist in an entire galaxy maximally populated by middling civilizations (each of which, say, has roughly the same population as modern earth).

This ratio becomes even more extreme if we suppose that our hypothetical kardashev-2 civilization contains virtual, as opposed to embodied beings. I think a matrioshka brain could hypothetically support more than 10^30 uploaded minds, or something in that outrageous ballpark.

On top of that, beings in a hi-tech civilization have the potential to live far more prosperous and happy lives than their counterparts in the middling civilizations. Just as many of us in the modern day have achieved heights on the hedonic scale that our Paleolithic ancestors could scarcely have dreamed of.

Given this, I think TDP being false is still better than it being true and PTP being false (especially since I value the hypothetical conscious states of possible post-singularity entities very highly). But even if you don’t agree with that subjective assessment, it’s not clear to me that the numbers say that we should prefer the TDP case to the PTP case.

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